Curse

high priestess anya · Jan 14, 2008, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

So in other words, I don't believe it was a hack at the moment until we are given further evidence. Anet conclusions over the years have made me mostly ignore them.

Yes we would. There have been numerous bans for non-hacks such as the duping bug a while back.

Anet almost never admits to wrong in these situations. Even though it is clearly something programmed into the game intentional or not, they can simply ban the players and point to the EULA.

Instead of removing the damage done and fixing the problem, they can simply ban customers and say it was the players fault with no further explanation other than "it was a hack".

Hahahah...yea we'll see.

breaching user agreement > punishment...regardless of the means and what people say, including anet.
even if there was no hack involved these guys still breached user agreement
as did all the other exploiters and bots and bla bla

BuD · Jan 14, 2008, 04:15 PM // 16:15

So to the people saying Mallyx exploit was the same as the Duncan bug.

How long were you able to run straight to the Duncan Dungeon without doin any other of the required Dungeons b4 ANet changed it? A couple weeks max? Anet had just released GWEN & realized they made a mistake(s) in their planning for Dungeons, so they added locked doors.

How long were you able to run straight to Mallyx without doing the other areas in DoA. Never!

I cant understand how people see the Duncan bug & Mallyx EXPLOIT as the same offense. Sure you got ferried/ran somewhere for both thats about the only similarity. Duncan bug was fixed shortly after realease. Mallyx Exploit happened over a year later from its release. Hard to believe there was a bug there this long & noone found it.

And the area you had to get to for the Mallyx Exploit.......that had to set off alarms, bells & whistles telling you "omg I shouldnt be here"

Trub · Jan 14, 2008, 04:19 PM // 16:19

*dodges GwG delete button*
I think it would have been odd..in an 'Elite' area...not to see a storage agent...nor a merchant for keys????
One of the first things our teams ask, before we go into any area of DoA..."everyone emty your bags, and get your picks?'
/bows to Inde

mrvrod · Jan 14, 2008, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

Ahh but you guys don't care about fairness now do you?

This reply is way off topic so sorry, but anyone who tries to tell you life is fair is just lying to you.

A-net doesn't have to be fair. It's their product, their servers, their call.

Fair? Probably not. Just? Absolutely.

high priestess anya · Jan 14, 2008, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lycan X

So to the people saying Mallyx exploit was the same as the Duncan bug.

How long were you able to run straight to the Duncan Dungeon without doin any other of the required Dungeons b4 ANet changed it? A couple weeks max? Anet had just released GWEN & realized they made a mistake(s) in their planning for Dungeons, so they added locked doors.

How long were you able to run straight to Mallyx without doing the other areas in DoA. Never!

I cant understand how people see the Duncan bug & Mallyx EXPLOIT as the same offense. Sure you got ferried/ran somewhere for both thats about the only similarity. Duncan bug was fixed shortly after realease. Mallyx Exploit happened over a year later from its release. Hard to believe there was a bug there this long & noone found it.

And the area you had to get to for the Mallyx Exploit.......that had to set off alarms, bells & whistles telling you "omg I shouldnt be here"

mallyx bug was reported way in back in nov 2007 by one of my friends also was reported about 6 months ago so im told.
btw people who skipped straight to duncan exploited that quest in exactly the same "breach in user agreement" as mallyx...
the how and why maybe different but bottom line is that both bugs opened access to locked areas and anyone who exploits these bugs is in breach of contract..who cares how much you made from either one the fact still remains that both broke GW law so to speak
what would we be saying now if mallyx bug was fixed instantly and the duncan bug was the reason why all you guys where here?

Fril Estelin · Jan 14, 2008, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

Also these guys should have been punished, they broke the rules. But I think Anet should either give them a break or punish the other exploiters as well. That would be fair. Ahh but you guys don't care about fairness now do you?

Ah yes! About that, one point rarely mentioned:

I think that Anet took an adult approach at the problem, trying first to give "warnings" (it may not have been very clear) and hope that people will slowly understand that actions will be taken. Action was taken at the time of the duping bug, and this made a lot of people very angry. I didn't take part to the equivalent GWG thread at that time, but I remember also some pretty nasty words.

I think Anet took the right approach to the problem, hoping that the GW community would be more mature than the "average" (so to say). Exactly like the /report feature, it allowed some problems to be fixed, to a certain extend (yes it's imperfect, let's not get off-track here, my point is: they gave tools to the community to try to regulate itself). But a minority of people got carried away in this story, some willingly, some not.

And then Anet had to step forward and say "enough is enough", it's time to send a strong message. They apparently spent a lot of time gathering evidence and discussing where to set the bar, but when this was done, I guess it was the point of no return. If you're reasonable, you'd react like that.

Now, people can argue about the absolute notion of justice, and try to go back in time and say "but this is similar to that and there was no ban!". If you put all the facts IN CONTEXT, including the sequence of events, it makes more sense than putting them all together in a big bag and then ask for justice. They've never released any information on the number of bans before, this is the first time they say how many people were banned. This sends a message (there clearly was more than 117 people using this) and I guess that they hope that people will listen.

But will we listen? (for those that will still be here to hear it) Time only will tell.

high priestess anya · Jan 14, 2008, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Ah yes! About that, one point rarely mentioned:

I think that Anet took an adult approach at the problem, trying first to give "warnings" (it may not have been very clear) and hope that people will slowly understand that actions will be taken. Action was taken at the time of the duping bug, and this made a lot of people very angry. I didn't take part to the equivalent GWG thread at that time, but I remember also some pretty nasty words.

I think Anet took the right approach to the problem, hoping that the GW community would be more mature than the "average" (so to say). Exactly like the /report feature, it allowed some problems to be fixed, to a certain extend (yes it's imperfect, let's not get off-track here, my point is: they gave tools to the community to try to regulate itself). But a minority of people got carried away in this story, some willingly, some not.

And then Anet had to step forward and say "enough is enough", it's time to send a strong message. They apparently spent a lot of time gathering evidence and discussing where to set the bar, but when this was done, I guess it was the point of no return. If you're reasonable, you'd react like that.

Now, people can argue about the absolute notion of justice, and try to go back in time and say "but this is similar to that and there was no ban!". If you put all the facts IN CONTEXT, including the sequence of events, it makes more sense than putting them all together in a big bag and then ask for justice. They've never released any information on the number of bans before, this is the first time they say how many people were banned. This sends a message (there clearly was more than 117 people using this) and I guess that they hope that people will listen.

But will we listen? (for those that will still be here to hear it) Time only will tell.

what of those people who didnt have the game early enough to see the example anet made of dupers?
to them they seen no examples and knew no limits. all they had to go by as an example some could argue is the "duncan exploit"

mrvrod · Jan 14, 2008, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

But will we listen? (for those that will still be here to hear it) Time only will tell.

Sadly I'd have to say no. The people that would not take advantage of an exploit do not need the message, the people that would, will continue to do so and then point a finger elsewhere when caught.

garethporlest18 · Jan 14, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Ah yes! About that, one point rarely mentioned:

I think that Anet took an adult approach at the problem, trying first to give "warnings" (it may not have been very clear) and hope that people will slowly understand that actions will be taken. Action was taken at the time of the duping bug, and this made a lot of people very angry. I didn't take part to the equivalent GWG thread at that time, but I remember also some pretty nasty words.

I think Anet took the right approach to the problem, hoping that the GW community would be more mature than the "average" (so to say). Exactly like the /report feature, it allowed some problems to be fixed, to a certain extend (yes it's imperfect, let's not get off-track here, my point is: they gave tools to the community to try to regulate itself). But a minority of people got carried away in this story, some willingly, some not.

And then Anet had to step forward and say "enough is enough", it's time to send a strong message. They apparently spent a lot of time gathering evidence and discussing where to set the bar, but when this was done, I guess it was the point of no return. If you're reasonable, you'd react like that.

Now, people can argue about the absolute notion of justice, and try to go back in time and say "but this is similar to that and there was no ban!". If you put all the facts IN CONTEXT, including the sequence of events, it makes more sense than putting them all together in a big bag and then ask for justice. They've never released any information on the number of bans before, this is the first time they say how many people were banned. This sends a message (there clearly was more than 117 people using this) and I guess that they hope that people will listen.

But will we listen? (for those that will still be here to hear it) Time only will tell.

I don't see that Anet was being mature in that situation. Instead of blatantly posting over different places, warnings of such (it's common sense really but still) people got the idea that Anet were easy on this sort of thing. I do not think that was a good choice.

But then again there is one thing we all have to consider, Anet might not have banned these folks for exploiting a bug, but exploiting a hack. They believe someone hacked, no not all 117 did, but they took part in exploiting the hack if though most (or some) did not know it was a hack. They were just unlucky to be partaking in something that Anet doesn't usually ban for (exploiting a bug). Hence why I say Anet should have banned for that in the past, and maybe it'd get the message that you really shouldn't try to use any exploits at all for personal gain just to be safe. But like I said that's common sense. Greed gets the better of most of us.

Also Anya, I would break out a religious analogy for you, but I don't think that will be needed. As soon as you (and the rest of the 117) were ported into that outpost, you were deemed guilty. There can be many reasons why you were ported there, but the fact goes. What you have to consider is that even though you are guilty, Gaile said that they were looking into certain cases of those that got banned and were in this outpost before, to see if they could get unbanned for certain reasons (unwillingly taken there etc). Course since Support seems to have been non-receptive to most that can all be a bunch of BS but it's all you got at the moment.

BuD · Jan 14, 2008, 04:36 PM // 16:36

The Duncan "BUG" didnt take you to the developers area with no NPC's. The Duncan "BUG" didnt need someone to stay parked there so they didnt lose access to the area. The Duncan "BUG" was an oversight on ANets behalf & was fixed semi promptly.

The Mallyx EXPLOIT was exactly that... an exploit. There was NEVER a way to just "do Mallyx" ever.

They are not comparable at all.

Trub · Jan 14, 2008, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

I don't see that Anet was being mature in that situation. Instead of blatantly posting over different places, warnings of such (it's common sense really but still) people got the idea that Anet were easy on this sort of thing. I do not think that was a good choice.

Why should ANet want to hold our hands thru a GAME?
I hopefully have enough common sense to realize when something is fishy.
I don't need a warning screen popping up every 10 minutes (like the you have been playing xxxx hours, please take a break.)
Common sense.
Just because someone wants to play in the street...doesn't mean I can't step back onto the curb?
Common sense.
Just because someone has the attitude that it is ok, no one will care because so and so got away with it..isn't a valid argument any longer.
Please wait for your support tickets to be replied to....grasping at straws isn't helping.

high priestess anya · Jan 14, 2008, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lycan X

The Duncan "BUG" didnt take you to the developers area with no NPC's. The Duncan "BUG" didnt need someone to stay parked there so they didnt lose access to the area. The Duncan "BUG" was an oversight on ANets behalf & was fixed semi promptly.

The Mallyx EXPLOIT was exactly that... an exploit. There was NEVER a way to just "do Mallyx" ever.

They are not comparable at all.

ok so the people who used the duncan bug werent exploiting?

definition of online gaming exploit:
In the realm of online games, an exploit is usually a software bug, hack or bot that contributes to the user's prosperity in a manner not intended by the developers.
dont make me define prosperity please

high priestess anya · Jan 14, 2008, 04:42 PM // 16:42

the reply to my second ticket:

Hello Paul

Thank you very much for contacting the Guild Wars Customer Support Team. We are currently investigating the problem you have reported and we will contact you back as soon as we have any news regarding this issue, or in case we require further information from your side.

We appreciate your patience and cooperation in this matter.

Regards
GM Benito

Guild Wars Customer Support
NCsoft Europe

edit: i havent seen tickle for a while...wonder if he got his account back

Mickey · Jan 14, 2008, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

ok so they people who used the duncan bug werent exploiting?

definition of online gaming exploit:
In the realm of online games, an exploit is usually a software bug, hack or bot that contributes to the user's prosperity in a manner not intended by the developers.

Duncan was just that, a bug people were using to exploit for their own personal gain. This is the same thing, what decides if it was worse or not is if there was actually a hack involved, which a lot of people cannot decide on. I personal think it was a bug, I was told it was a bug, I was emailed it was a bug, I was emailed it was a bug by the people that took me there. I'm going to believe them for the moment, until Support gets sorted out.

The problem here is this: Both were exploited, and used by people for personal gain, the line is drawn when Anet actually 100% knows for sure that a hack was involved.

Fril Estelin · Jan 14, 2008, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

I don't see that Anet was being mature in that situation. Instead of blatantly posting over different places, warnings of such (it's common sense really but still) people got the idea that Anet were easy on this sort of thing. I do not think that was a good choice.

I highlighted the important part, and you're right on that. Except it's only a few people. I won't point more fingers because we don't need that, but it clearly was a localised problem and they didn't need to "cut people's head on the public stage".

But some people will NEVER stop. You give them a no-monthly-fee MMO, and they're farming (yes, it's their right, I'm not denying that). It creates a good economy, so fine. But then the greed takes the best of them and when bugs are exposed, they abuse them. And the abuse is done several times, so the first few times you're not too severe and hope people will act responsibly. But they don't, so you increase the pressure. First the duping bug, now this one.

It had to be done.

Quote:

But then again there is one thing we all have to consider, Anet might not have banned these folks for exploiting a bug, but exploiting a hack.

You're pointing at a technicality. Though this may be right (people lie you know, and I'm not saying you are of course!), this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. It's cheating, right?

Quote:

They believe someone hacked, no not all 117 did, but they took part in exploiting the hack if though most (or some) did not know it was a hack. They were just unlucky to be partaking in something that Anet doesn't usually ban for (exploiting a bug). Hence why I say Anet should have banned for that in the past, and maybe it'd get the message that you really shouldn't try to use any exploits at all for personal gain just to be safe. But like I said that's common sense. Greed gets the better of most of us.

I'd tend to agree with this part, emphasizing that you're talking about some people, but not all. Greed never took the best of me (I'm no saint and NEVER ever would like to be seen like one), we may have personal circumstances, but surely not "reasons". GW may be a game but I believe MMOs (like social networking websites) work a bit differently.

As Trub said several times, if we were to take a few seconds to think calmly about the situation, stepping out of GWG, we'd realise it's only a game. The honor of a few may have been wiped out, but from I can see here, there are still a lot of very honorable people that, still, were exploiters. From Gaile earlier statements, Anets investigation was quite extensive (probably not as much as one that Blizzard would have done, but I read on a link that zwei2stein posted earlier here but got deleted similar stories on Wow that are much worse IMHO) and I don't believe the people claiming that there was no hack. I do believe on the other hand that some people may have been dragged "by mistake" (like leprekaun's nephew) and I hope that if Anet can't do anything for them, we (the GW community) can.

DragonRogue · Jan 14, 2008, 04:53 PM // 16:53

well since everyone is so fond of real life comparisons then i feel i must add one last example, in a vain attempt, to try and get others to understand the plight that has the 117 so riled up.

A) we were caught shoplifting items in a store, our punishment is death.
B) we were caught fencing playstation 3s for half price, caused a store to go under because they couldnt sell any of theirs at the full price and the punishment is death.
C) we snuck onto the military base at Area 51, the MPs caught us, shot first, asked questions later, and our punishment was death.

It is obvious to us that if this was a legal court of law that death is not a reasonable punishment for theft or treaspassing. jail time agreed, death not agreed. However it does seem to me that Anet are the MPs and treaspassing on a military base can wind up in death.

Our charaters in the game are dead. banned is dead. cant ever play them again. will never lay eyes on anything ever again. they are dead and there is no resurrect shrine. based on the rules, once banned, we cant just go out and buy the game and start over. so please stop saying that to any of us. why would we go out and risk another 200 dollars just to have this incedent come back up and get that account banned too, even if we never did anything wrong again and never even stepped foot near mallyx again? also is that the real punishment to play again? is the real world money we would have to spend again? the arguement that its "just a game" is annoying us too since you all are obviously finding joy in playing it. just like we did, and we are greatly saddened to not be able to ever play it again. of all the games out there we also chose to play this and most of us were avid daily players. go ahead and rub salt in the wounds we already have. some of you seem so fond of doing that. we have been called liars and cheats and worse already. whats a little salt?

unlike many of the posters here, i have actually taken the time to read every single post made. this concerns me and i wish to hear both sides of the argument. both sides have made, for the most part, good arguments if you look past the anger and flaming that has been going on. i have also seen the discrepancies that both sides have made in thier arguements. there have not been posts from all 117, so stop lumping everyone into the same group and assuming that this was the largest co-op unisoned attack ever pulled off in the history of gaming. take for granted that every one of the 117 had different circumstances on how and why they were there. if truly we had all been mastermind hackers and worked as a team, in any endeavour, dont you think we would have attempted something a bit more serious than a game to exploit? also all 117 havent been going thru the 5 stages either so stop saying that as well. its just more salt. ive never been rude in any of my posts nor have i angrily flamed anyone. for those against us, i see your point and for many of them i have agreed with you on some point or another. i dont blame Anet for my mistakes, i cant even really blame my so called friends who told me about this. However i have every right to hope that Anet shows some mercy before their axe deletes my toon forever. ive never said i wasnt guilty and that i didnt deserve any punishment. a temp ban is the same as jail time in my opinion. we are already over the 72 hour mark by a day. i dont even think this can be solved completely by the end of next week for some. Anet doesnt have to show any mercy to any of us if they choose not to. but i can hope. id like a chance to clear my name and prove once again to my friends, Anet, and the gw community that i can be " a productive member of society" once again. Demoralized as i am, and im sure the rest are as well, has been a punishment pretty bad in its own right. we have lost the respect of the friends we still have left here, the community, and our self respect. believe me or not, flame me or not. but dont sit there and think that every one of the 117 are the same anything. someone might have hacked but not all. someone might have farmed enough gemsets for 30 armbraces but not all. some might have been there for profit but not all. some might have been there for one item or to be doing something with friends. some might have known they werent supposed to be there but it is possible that some didnt. so please stop making blanket assumtions about everyones character. you dont KNOW anything. only what people have told you because you are not one of the 117 and you are not mind readers.

Thanks to GWG and its moderators for giving us a voice to be heard. human nature is to keep using that voice for the remaining time most of us wait on death row and you have shown considerable patience with both sides of this. Anet has seen what we have to say seeing as how Ms Grey has been posting regularly.

Thanks to Ms Grey for taking the flaming from our side as the job of being the face and voice of GW. Yours is not a job id want after seeing all of this and i feel sorry for what you have obviously gone thru here. im sure you have lost sleep over this as much as those of us on our side have. im also sorry that i have been part of that mess. i also thank you for taking the time to read all of this as well. it has taken me days and you and your team will find much work monday morning.

Thanks also to the community in large who supported the 117. we heard your voices as well and it made us feel a little bit better that we werent so alone in our thinking. that someone cared enough to take time and defend friend and strager means much to me. I also thank the opposition for giving me much to think about and reflect on. even if some of it was bordering on pitchforks and torches.

and for those of you wondering... this was my main and my only account that got banned. i shall inform you when i hold the funeral services for all 23 of my toons.

garethporlest18 · Jan 14, 2008, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

I highlighted the important part, and you're right on that. Except it's only a few people. I won't point more fingers because we don't need that, but it clearly was a localised problem and they didn't need to "cut people's head on the public stage".

When I was talking about the people there, I meant the Duncan and Guild Hall glitch people. I'm sure they know a bit better now, unless Anet was banning for them using an exploit related to a hack, and not just a bug.

Quote:

You're pointing at a technicality. Though this may be right (people lie you know, and I'm not saying you are of course!), this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. It's cheating, right?

The reason I said that was because there are a few in this thread who think Anet was just banning over the exploit (myself included for a while) and not the fact that Anet most likely banned because it was related to a hack.

Quote:

I'd tend to agree with this part, emphasizing that you're talking about some people, but not all. Greed never took the best of me (I'm no saint and NEVER ever would like to be seen like one), we may have personal circumstances, but surely not "reasons". GW may be a game but I believe MMOs (like social networking websites) work a bit differently.

As Trub said several times, if we were to take a few seconds to think calmly about the situation, stepping out of GWG, we'd realise it's only a game. The honor of a few may have been wiped out, but from I can see here, there are still a lot of very honorable people that, still, were exploiters. From Gaile earlier statements, Anets investigation was quite extensive (probably not as much as one that Blizzard would have done, but I read on a link that zwei2stein posted earlier here but got deleted similar stories on Wow that are much worse IMHO) and I don't believe the people claiming that there was no hack. I do believe on the other hand that some people may have been dragged "by mistake" (like leprekaun's nephew) and I hope that if Anet can't do anything for them, we (the GW community) can.

I think that a lot of the 117 are upset because they lost money, and that's why it feels a bit more real life to them. That's why they're fighting as well. Maybe they won't face such harsh treatment if Anet can conclude this could have been done without a hack, until that time they probably will not have the bans lifted. Most of this thread has just been arguing over certain points that one side or the other doesn't or doesn't want to understand.

EDIT: To Dragon (above): I know why you're so riled up, I would be too. Because it would be a big waste of my time, cause I haven't been playing for fun the whole time I've been playing Guild Wars (that's another issue though). The thing is though, whether willing or unwillingly you broke the rules of conduct when you set foot in that place. When you agreed to the terms of service, you gave up your money and your game character's lives to Anet. They can do whatever they want with you no matter how unfair it is. And yes that sucks. Anet has been quite lenient with others that broke rules in the past, this time was for a little more large scale reason. Treat it as losing a loved one. Yeah I know this is a game and losing a loved one is a much greater tragedy. But you seem to hold your account close to your heart, and as foolish as it might sound..that's what you're going to have to treat it as unless something new pops up and your account can be resurrected. Oh and just so you don't think I have no sympathy, a lot of posters in this thread made me want to verbally attack them, I held back and they were usually against the banners side.

It's the arrogance that gets me probably, not saying that some of the 117 weren't silly with their excuses but still..civility makes for peace.

Mickey · Jan 14, 2008, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Tbh, I just want my account back. I bet you a good amount of the 117 feel the exact same way. I just want to go play with my friends again. Just a second chance. Hell, I bet you a good amount of the 117, including me, would wipe any character that benefited of of this. Anything that came from Mallyx, I would wipe. I know how Anet feels right now, they needed to get a message across, and heck, I think they already have, with this whole exploit going onto guru, 100 page long thread. I think people get the idea, exploits are bad, exploiting bugs are bad, hacking is bad. I, for one, would do absolutely anything they wanted me to if I could get my account back.

mrvrod · Jan 14, 2008, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

From Gaile earlier statements, Anets investigation was quite extensive (probably not as much as one that Blizzard would have done, but I read on a link that zwei2stein posted earlier here but got deleted similar stories on Wow that are much worse IMHO) and I don't believe the people claiming that there was no hack. I do believe on the other hand that some people may have been dragged "by mistake" (like leprekaun's nephew) and I hope that if Anet can't do anything for them, we (the GW community) can.

If Gaile's statements can be believed as cold, hard facts as to who did and did not get banned, only the most severe abusers of the exploit were punnished.

Now I'm not saying Gaile cannot lie, or that she would have nothing to gain from doing so, but let's be real here, the exploiters have more to gain by lying and minimizing their actions regarding this exploit. This is why i lend more credence (spelling?) to a-net and less to the 117.

If there really are people in the banned 117, who used this exploit 4 or less times total, without chat logs proving they KNEW it was an exploit, or especially if there are members of the 117 who went ONCE and left immediately when they figured out what was going on, then I for one would DEMAND that a-net IMMEDIATELY re-instate them.

Any greater use of the exploit than stated above and you get no sympathy from me.

Mickey · Jan 14, 2008, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

If Gaile's statements can be believed as cold, hard facts as to who did and did not get banned, only the most severe abusers of the exploit were punnished.

Now I'm not saying Gaile cannot lie, or that she would have nothing to gain from doing so, but let's be real here, the exploiters have more to gain by lying and minimizing their actions regarding this exploit. This is why i lend more credence (spelling?) to a-net and less to the 117.

If there really are people in the banned 117, who used this exploit 4 or less times total, without chat logs proving they KNEW it was an exploit, or especially if there are members of the 117 who went ONCE and left immediately when they figured out what was going on, then I for one would DEMAND that a-net IMMEDIATELY re-instate them.

Any greater use of the exploit than stated above and you get no sympathy from me.

I keep hearing the term "lying" pop up here. If Anet holds the cards to unban us, why would be lie to a forum? It's not like Gaile comes, hour after hour, to look at this thread, and read our stories. Or that appealing to the GWG community is going to help us get our accounts back or contact Anet.